Guests: Dave Duke & Mat Sweezey – “The Performance Economy: Experience vs. outcomes”

TJTO_Guest015_DaveDuke_MattSweezey_20210126

Jason Whitehead: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. And welcome to another episode of the Jason’s take on today. We’re really excited to have two guests with us. We have Dave Duke from Metta CX and Matt Sweezey from Salesforce today. We will be talking about. The performance economy and looking at the discussion around experienced versus outcomes, and really trying to get the thoughts and insights from these two experienced leaders in the field who have lots of say on the matter, and also recently published the book.

[00:00:25] So we’re really excited to welcome you both here.  To jump right in David, Matt, please just take a second to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about your background and your organizations and how we got to this topic.

[00:00:36] Dave Duke: [00:00:36] Absolutely. Thank you for having us guys really good to be with you.

[00:00:40] And a little bit about me. I’m been in SAS for about 15 years and I grew up professionally at a a MarTech company called exact target, which is now part of Salesforce. It’s where Matt and I first met. It’s the Salesforce marketing cloud now. And I’ve really grown to appreciate the power of customer management, customer experience and business as a whole.

[00:01:04] And most recently I’ve, co-founded Metta CX with a few others, and we are off to the races trying to think about better ways to bring buyers and suppliers together, to collaborate and excited to unpack this ebook today. Think a lot about experience and the relationship to the needs and the goals of our customer.

[00:01:23] So thanks again for having me. Awesome.

[00:01:25] Jason Whitehead: [00:01:25] Thank you so much, Matt.

[00:01:26] Mat Sweezey: [00:01:26] Cool. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. My name’s Matthew Sweezey feel free. Most people just call me squeezing everyone in the audience. If you ever meet me in real person, just say, Hey, what’s up Sweezy? Yeah, the funniest part was like, someone’s that’s your nickname was like, no, that’s my actual name.

[00:01:38]Anyway director of market strategy at Salesforce recently published a new book for Harvard business called the context marketing revolution and really dive into the future of marketing. So really own that POV for the organization of Salesforce and really looking at, what does the future look like in terms of how do we make our customers more efficient and better, and how do we help them have better relationships with their customers through the medium of marketing?

[00:01:59] Jason Noble: [00:01:59] Awesome. I like Jason said, I’m in super excited to have you both with us. And I think this kind of discussion about, experience versus outcomes, two key topics that everybody in the world of customer success has four front and center in their minds. Sometimes it’s difficult to understand what we mean by it and how you bring them together.

[00:02:18] Is that magical source. So this is, I am super, super excited about this. And Dave I, we used to work with exact target before it was acquired by Salesforce. I’m going back wow. Must be, it must 15, 16 years ago. But I remember it, it was a really phenomenal tool. We were using Salesforce separately at the same time.

[00:02:35] Both of you guys really excited about this.

[00:02:38]Dave Duke: [00:02:38] Excellent.

[00:02:40] Jason Whitehead: [00:02:40] Absolutely. I think in the industry too, you read so much about customer experience these days, and everyone’s talking about that and user experience and UX and all the other good stuff going on. And people mentioned outcomes almost as an afterthought in some regards, is those slowly picking up, but I’d love to get your thoughts guys, can you create a little context for us and what made you start looking into the differences between experience and outcomes and why should SAS for me to be making this

[00:03:05] Dave Duke: [00:03:05] distinction?

[00:03:07] That starts us off here. Cause it’s doing a lot of research on his end. It really was a catalyst for our work. So Matt

[00:03:13] Mat Sweezey: [00:03:13] take it away. Cool. And so really what happened was about the middle of June of last year, me and a colleague, Karen Mangi decide to sit down with a bunch of key customer officers and chief experience officers and really dig into how has COVID changed customer experience.

[00:03:27] So we do these deep interviews. And across all interviews. And we’re talking about, heads of major organizations from experience from a wide range of backgrounds and one common theme stood out above all others, which was this move to outcomes. And this is doing everything from changing the go-to-market strategy from companies it’s asking, making companies question, are we.

[00:03:47] What a company or a service company, by the way, that was a SAS based company who was asking that question, are we a product or a service company? So it’s even the most progressive are evolving and the main quote that I’ve just hung my hat on and just love to bring up, which kind of really iterates this.

[00:04:03] And just brings this notion home is when I heard a chief experience officer say the following, they said, we have happy customers with great experiences, leave all the time. And we have unhappy customers with bad experience to stay. The differences are the outcomes that they receive. And when you really start to think about it, and you think about it from the problems that we use, experienced professionals and marketers habits, we have resource allocations.

[00:04:24] Yes. We know experiences are powerful, but then there’s lots of problems. How do we measure that? How do we prove that. Then there’s the other aspects such as, is that exactly what the customer wants? And then it’s what experiences do we focus on? And when we really shift that lens to say, experiences a method, but outcomes, the actual customer, when we start to align around that’s when all this matters, it starts to happen because if you didn’t put this in the context of the greater conversation that we’re all having by digital transformation, how do we move out of silos and how do we then start to orchestrate around key customer moments?

[00:04:55]What do we orchestrate? And we’re orchestrating those outcomes. So there’s, this is an aspect of digital transformation. This is an aspect of organizational transformation. This is really a big aspect of how we go to market because we start to open up radically new doors that were never possible before outcome-based pricing, outcome-based selling outcome-based service and support, it’s a whole new frontier and it always just really brought to my attention when we really started doing that, those interviews with those chief experiences.

[00:05:19] Jason Noble: [00:05:19] Why do you think it’s such a big challenge? I, you have to get that. It must’ve been quite a, kind of an eye-opener when you sat down with all of these senior execs and everybody’s resonating the same chain, what, why do you think it

[00:05:31] Mat Sweezey: [00:05:31] is?

[00:05:32] I think the biggest reason is two fold. One is this wasn’t they had been going down this path for a while. Time to value had been a thing most everyone on this call and those time to value and we’d look at it. But I think really what happened was COVID was the catalyst because you had these methods and really, if we boil it down to what’s the problem.

[00:05:48]The problem is the consumers are financially constrained. It doesn’t matter if it’s a B2B organization or a B2C customer. They’re financially constrained. When an individual is constrained, they make decisions differently. And what they really want is the outcome. Because if I have a finite amount of resources to invest, I need the thing most specifically that I want, I don’t need any other fluff.

[00:06:06]So then we start to see outcome based everything, which is now that I can then sell you the outcome, rather than just selling you the thing with the hope of an outcome. So it’s a different move and that’s when you know, that’s when then this really brought me back to Dave and saying, Hey, Dave this is what I saw.

[00:06:21] I know you guys are doing stuff on this. Let’s think about what we can do here. And that’s what really brought this whole idea to light was this relevation or this, this. Understanding that I came out with and then Dave’s yeah, we’re working on it. We know it too. So that’s like where the synergy came from.

[00:06:35] And

[00:06:35] Dave Duke: [00:06:35] Jason I’ll I’ll add to that and say that I think it comes back to just the way that our organizations have been built, very internal focus perspective where it’s been pretty selfish, frankly, and w what’s happening is people are realizing, ironically that it. It is about the customer and we need to serve the customer to the best of our abilities and we can break it down more.

[00:06:58]The guide that is the customer is really important to understand. And then we need to reorient around the outcomes that they deem they need to achieve. But part of the big problem is that we’ve been very internal focused. And now I think people are starting to realize that it’s gotta be more.

[00:07:16] More if we’re going to be truly customer centric, we’ve got to break that down and understand what that actually means

[00:07:23] Jason Noble: [00:07:23] that aligns to the podcasts that we did only the other week, Jason, about kind of customer centricity. It is that, for me, customer centricity is all about aligning around the customer and it, like you say, it does a lot of organizations.

[00:07:36] Would almost struggle with it. So of course, for about the customer and it seems adapting for people to say, yeah we were not focused on customer, but things have changed. It’s been about technology, about product, and we’ve got to make sure the customer is back at the center of everything. For what you say, that every organization, however, big or small, there are still silos

[00:07:57] Dave Duke: [00:07:57] challenge.

[00:07:57]What does it mean to be customer centric? We can embed exactly to the point of the collaboration here. The experience is important, and Matt does a great job of kind of articulating that. But what’s on the other end of those experiences while the customer came to us because they have a problem.

[00:08:14]But we often lose sight of. Of the importance of solving that problem. So I think it comes back to really breaking down and redefining in many ways what it means to be customer centric, but it’s not rocket science. It is let’s literally just stay focused on what matters most to the customer, which is delivering a business impact to their organizations.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:37] Jason Whitehead: [00:08:37] I was gonna say, I really love what you said as well, too, about people being financially constrained and how that really was the catalyst for this. Cause I think that comes back to. The perception that you know, how concerned necessity, but to your point, the experience is in some ways a luxury, whether you’re having to completely the high end sedan or that you’re a double big luxury meal, I think more and more folks.

[00:08:56] And the SAS world are now realizing that they skipped over the necessity part to focus on the luxury back when times are

[00:09:01] Mat Sweezey: [00:09:01] good. And it’s not, it’s nothing experiences are wrong. They’re completely correct. It’s just that we have to understand the correct formula, which is experiences or the method that we use to deliver the outcomes.

[00:09:13] Because no, because like even we, we run the data, right? So last year it was 84% of consumers say the experiences just as important to the product or service. But no consumer ever wakes up saying, damn, I want a good experience today. Like experiences, just the way that we efficiently deliver the outcomes.

[00:09:29] We make it easier for them to achieve that. That’s a better experience. And when there is a world where experience isn’t focused on any experiences, competitive differentiation, but we must remember the book, the experience economy, right? Harvard business, one of the, in my opinion, one of the most Seminole like business books of the past two decades.

[00:09:46]It was originally published in 1999. So we’ve been focused on experiences for a long time. It’s a well-known thing. This is the next evolution of competitive differentiation. It’s not that I can just give you a good experience it’s that I can deliver the best outcome via the best experience.

[00:10:02] Jason Noble: [00:10:02] I think it’s a fascinating thing to talk about. And if you look at COVID and  do think, customer service and experience throughout COVID has got worse and I think. Sadly, it’s almost become an acceptable fact that you can put up with poor experiences and it’s almost shifted what people’s expectations either.

[00:10:20] They’re no longer thinking this experience. Isn’t right. And the number of big organizations. But if I look at banks, particularly you phone up a bank and a year down the line, there’s still a voicemail or recording that says due to the pandemic guys, you’ve had a year to deal with this. You need to reset and rebase what the experiences are.

[00:10:40] And it is trying to what do we want, and all those experiences shifting what are you guys are questioning about for you guys? And  this idea of an engineered outcome. Tell us a bit more about that and how it’s new and different from what’s happening today.

[00:10:53] Dave Duke: [00:10:53] Yeah. That one day. Yeah, absolutely. The thing we’re calling out here in the ebook is that there, there just needs to be a more informed guide for the management of the customer relationship. So when we talk about. Engineering outcomes. It is thinking about how we create better structure within the organization to serve the customer and help them achieve their outcomes.

[00:11:16] So it is  we think about the life cycle, it’s reflecting on what is the customer life cycle relative to the outcomes that the customer needs to achieve. And,  we’re very familiar with these journey mapping exercises and it really could align to that, but it is it’s really specific to the needs of the customer and then the experiences compliment that.

[00:11:39] But it is there’s a in the, e-book a graphic that I think is helpful where we’re talking about, the formation and the relationship early on, and this agreement as we come together, the, with our customers to, define and document a set of outcomes that we’re going to go achieve together.

[00:11:56] And then we are positioning our products and services to go off and achieve those outcomes over time. And then there’s milestones along the way. But what we’re proposing is that we need to enable the organization in new ways and in better ways, our employees. To work in a context that, that puts them in a position to serve the customer so that the customer is in a position to achieve their outcomes.

[00:12:19] So that, that’s what we’re talking about. When we talk about engineering outcomes.

[00:12:22] Mat Sweezey: [00:12:22] Yeah. That’s follow on with that is when we think about experiences, we know an experience just doesn’t happen, right? You just don’t throw somebody in a room with things and a good experience happens.

[00:12:30] It has to be well-designed right. Human centered design is how we know that. It’s a great, the best experience. It’s no different with an outcome. You can’t just have a basic set of things and expect outcomes to happen. That’s what most organizations have and they expect good. But what we must realize is that.

[00:12:44] We must organize these. We must orchestrate these outcomes. So when you start to then see what is required to orchestrate them, there’s a whole range of things. Number one is this is not the company saying, Hey customer, I’m going to tell you what your outcome is supposed to be. Your number one is we’re working with the customers to understand them.

[00:13:00] What that, what is the outcome that you want? And then even going as advanced to saying, okay, we know what you want to do now. Let’s look at your current state, where are you in your maturity model on getting there, right? What is the realistic timeframe to get you to where you want to be? And then let’s break that down into milestones.

[00:13:17] And then this then opens up radically new doors of all kinds of different aspects of, new types of business reviews, new types of roles inside the organization, new types of technology that we need to use. New types of alignment methodology. So I think there’s a whole lot, but it must be orchestrated.

[00:13:30] It just doesn’t happen randomly, right?

[00:13:33] Jason Whitehead: [00:13:33] No, I’m curious to get your take as well too, because one of the things that we’ve often talked about is that the buyer also needs to be more savvy about how they’re going to drive success in their own organization. And, But I think back to, we mentioned this on some other podcasts that we’ve done.

[00:13:46] The whole reason we have customer success teams is many organizations are buyers. They’re not good at getting people to adopt them, to create value with technology in their own organization. They need help there. If they could get success on their own, they wouldn’t need a customer success group and things like that.

[00:13:59]What are the responsibilities of a buyer’s organization to change how they engage with their customers, with their suppliers? To really figure out how we going to work together and partner to make sure that we’re both successful. That’s processed. What should a buyer be doing

[00:14:12] Mat Sweezey: [00:14:12] differently?

[00:14:13]I’m going to start with that one. And I don’t know if the answer is they should be doing anything really differently. Anytime we buy something, we all come with the same expectation of I’m going to benefit from this relationship. That’s the why we engage in those relationships. I think it’s on the it’s on the onus of the brand, the business, the vendor, the supplier.

[00:14:31] To then help them achieve those outcomes. I think the individual already comes with the desire to get those things. I think what they don’t know is how to do it. And that once again goes back to the onus it’s on us to help them do those things. So I think what has to happen is. Customer comes with the same expectations of outcome is delivered.

[00:14:48] I think they need to come with the expectation of now the company is going to help them get those expectations in a very systematic and scalable and detailed way. And that’s really, I think the differences, they just need to understand that there are steps and there’s milestones, and this is. These are all conversations we have with people when we, and this is where we start to get into competitive differentiation from a selling standpoint of, if this is how you’re going to market, if this is how you’re selling, those are very competitive differentiations of these conversations.

[00:15:14] So I don’t know, I don’t think the customer shows up at anything different. I think we teach them that to achieve the outcomes that you desire. Here’s a new and better method to do that. I think that’s all we’re

[00:15:23] Dave Duke: [00:15:23] doing. I think that’s. In my experience that it is where it breaks down. We haven’t properly set expectations early on, on how we’re going to go about the management of the relationship over time.

[00:15:35] Yeah. And I think that is on, it is on the the supplier, but the buyer, is going to buying into that if they understand it. So then we know that it takes  to make it successful. But to Matt’s point,  it’s our responsibility to really set the tone there because it can break down if we don’t But then  we do appreciate that.

[00:15:55] We need to hold both sides accountable in that exercise. And what we’re proposing here is that. The more structure we can have in this realm. The easier it is for both sides to understand what’s going to take, to be successful over the long-term. And it really is you setting the expectation that this is a long-term exercise, and we’re doing this for a reason.

[00:16:17]Sometimes we have to remind our customers why we’re doing what we’re doing, especially as we get into multi-year agreements, which is what we all want. But it is a, it’s a marathon. So we need to. Consistently be working within the proper context and in a collaborative way. I love

[00:16:33] Jason Noble: [00:16:33] that analogy about it being a marathon, because it is this isn’t and this is changing our mindset.

[00:16:38] And we’ve spoken about this before, but it isn’t about just that initial win long-term partnership, where you’re delivering value to your customer, to their customers, but also there’s value in it for you. And is that mutual success that we’ve got? How do  that shifting of a mindset to think about this as a partnership is a difficult thing to do, but there’s an equal shift.

[00:16:57] When you shift thinking about experiences to then the idea about engineering outcomes, what do you see as the biggest challenges for Suffolk suspenders and suppliers when they’re trying to make that shift?

[00:17:10] Dave Duke: [00:17:10] You wanna start with that one day? Yeah, I think it is actually back to some of the points earlier.

[00:17:15] It is, it’s a kind of. Cultural thing. And it’s back to, are we truly customer centric? And then do we truly understand the needs of the customer? And so I think that  it starts there, but it’s also to your point, Jason it’s one of the challenges and Matt says this well, it’s a leadership Yeah thing.

[00:17:32] It’s, it’s got to come from the C-suite from the CEO. We have to be aligned internally on our mission and relative to customer service and customer support and management. If we don’t understand at the highest levels, why we’re in it in the first place, then, the rest of the organization is going to have a hard time following.

[00:17:51] So I think that’s where it starts. But that’s where a lot of the. The problems can occur.

[00:17:57] Mat Sweezey: [00:17:57] Yeah. Some data on that one in all of the research that we’ve done, both in the state of marketing for the past four years, I’ve wrote about this in my book, but the number one difference between high-performing marketing organizations and everyone else is full executive buy-in to a new idea of marketing or marketing has moved out of a silo and they become the owners and sustainers of all customer experiences.

[00:18:17] That’s the basic definition of what a high performing marketing organization is. When we then do this followup research in June of last year, same thing, every customer we talked to, they all had doubled down in experience. We know that because they had job titles, chief experience officer, and they had a lot of meat behind.

[00:18:33] They wasn’t just, as one said, this is not a paper tiger role. We have budget, we have authority, we have goals. And we’re delivering. What they also said is we’ve been going down these paths for years. Six years was not uncommon. Three years was the average of how long they’d been moving down this pathway to really double down on experiences.

[00:18:53]Number one to the point of, if you don’t have full executive approval to go down this path, it’s not going to happen. And that’s the truth of, the move to experiences and then the next move to outcomes. So that’s where it starts. Period.

[00:19:06] Jason Whitehead: [00:19:06] You said some groups have newer accounts for six years, and I saw an ebook where you also laid out a maturity model for the steps and Basie you should go through.

[00:19:13] And I’m a big fan of maturity models. I think it breaks it down nicely and people don’t get overwhelmed. If an organizations just trying to make this shift or just becoming aware of the shift that they need to go from their experience to outcomes. What are some of the first steps they should take?

[00:19:27] And how quickly do you think the average SAS company can make that shift?

[00:19:32] Mat Sweezey: [00:19:32] You’re gonna start on that one day, then I’ll yeah,

[00:19:34] Dave Duke: [00:19:34] absolutely. So know. To to the point of, internal alignment. What we are proposing is that is where this starts. It is we need to internally be talking the same language across marketing and sales success product.

[00:19:48] And then that spills over into the way that we start to organize with the customer and the maturity models speak to. Just speaks to alignment first and foremost, and, it seems simple, but we really do need to just be a discipline there and ensure that we are aligned from day one with our customers.

[00:20:06] But what we’re arguing is that starts with the way that we’re talking to the market. And then the way that we are Developing our sales process relative to outcome language, and then the format, the formation of the initial success plan that then is being transitioned into the post sales world.

[00:20:24]But then it steps into needing to deliver and leveraging our products and services in the right ways to set the customer up for success over the longterm. In other words, if we’re not using we’re, we’re not using the product or leveraging services in the right way. We don’t have a chance.

[00:20:42] And there. Then is a path to what we believe is where we need to be, which is that stage four stage five, where we are being able to articulate the value that’s being delivered relative to the outcomes that we set out to achieve initially. And we are also proposing that there’s this last mile that has not been figured out at all, which is exchanging data in new ways.

[00:21:06]Oftentimes the customer owns a data set that is really the the KPI set that we should be aligning to and ultimately influencing.  We’re asking big questions. Like what would it look like if we come together collaboratively and share information in new ways? So that’s at a high level.

[00:21:23] And what we know is that there’s a. There’s an evolution that takes place here relative to those stages. But we want to try and to simplify it, break it down and just talk logically about how this relationship with the customer can unfold relative to the outcomes they want to achieve.

[00:21:39] Mat Sweezey: [00:21:39] Yeah. And I’ll add some little more specific meat on those stages.

[00:21:43]We talked about number one is executive alignment, right? Once you have that alignment, you can then start to do these different types of things internally, which is number one is co owning metrics. You can’t just decentralize day one. You’re going to stair step into these things. And that step one to do that is to co-own.

[00:21:57]So sales and marketing success. That’s step one. And then you start to be able to then. Rally around key numbers and you start to decentralize that’s then the next step of right. Really starting to then orchestrate around these key customer moments on Thursday. Then thinking about when we’re doing these things, there’s new ways of working, right?

[00:22:13] Because we’re co collaborating with the customer. This is not you dictating what has going to happen. This is you collaborating with them and opening up and saying, here’s what we can do. What do we want to do together then getting buy-in and commitment from both sides. Then creating that plan and moving that plan forward.

[00:22:28]So then once you get past that you then start looking at new metrics, right? How are you thinking to measure the delivery of these outcomes? Really that’s the organization moving out of NPS and much more focused on time to value? And in the e-book you’ll read, quote that said, we are now we have no longer leaving NPS as the North star.

[00:22:45] We’ve now replaced it with time to value. And in fact, These customers are measuring customer success with the following math equation of customer outcomes, divided by customer experience where outcomes weighed heavier than the experience. So then you can move past that and go even further. And you say, okay, now that we start to understand.

[00:23:03] What it takes, we’ve gotten buy in. Now we can then get even more specific and we can start to then align what we want. What we think your timeline to outcome delivery is based on the maturity model of where you are on that path. And because everyone’s going to have a different time to value based on what your maturity is.

[00:23:18] In that current scenario, what is your, what is the scenario? And then, you start to get mature and more mature. So there’s lots of little stair tested steps that, that work all the way across. And then there’s the final thing, which is Dave talking about, which is, there’s new technology that we need to put in place.

[00:23:32] Because as we think about this from a, this is theoretical, right. But when we start to talk about how does this actually happen? There has to be a living document because if you take this to the extreme, let’s go to the extreme sample. We ended up with outcome-based pricing, which means that we are no longer selling a thing.

[00:23:47] We were selling. It help comes, and you’re only going to pay me for the outcomes and you’re going to pay me based on the outcomes. So I produce better outcomes. I get a higher payment. I produce lower outcomes. You get a lower payment. We’re already starting to see this happen in the marketplace.

[00:23:59] Honeywell’s doing this, bear’s doing this from a consumer side. Metro is doing this. So to do that today’s point, there has to be something type of connection, right? Whether this is some type of a blockchain thing where we set up, okay, here’s going to be the outcome. Here’s going to be the data feeds. Once it hits this number, this is what the payment becomes or whatever it’s going to be.

[00:24:17] It’s just a simple living document. There’s a whole nother aspect of that. So I think, once we talk about the high level and then, those are the actual steps in between.

[00:24:25] Jason Noble: [00:24:25] I think this is, it’s an incredible journey and they, everyone knows the outcome of where we want to get to for this but how you get there.

[00:24:33] Isn’t simple. There are some big challenges, but I love kind of that, that talking through the different steps we can take guys look huge. Thank you. We’ve loved talking to you. This is something that I think is going to resonate with all of our listeners. But how do  we always like to end with with a bold challenge question or it’s my wife calling me on Alexa, sharing out there.

[00:24:53] Apologies for that. We would like to end with a bowl challenge question for our listeners here and really allow them to take some bold actions to how they’re going to improve their practices, but what would you suggest as bold actions that our listeners could take right now to how they improve delivering their outcomes to their customers and how they can make that shift themselves to engineering outcomes?

[00:25:14] Mat Sweezey: [00:25:14] I’d say step one is challenged. The notion of NPS. I think that’s going to be the first step of saying, is this the correct North star for our organization to deliver the best customer centric experience? Ask that question. And then look at how you’re measuring that. What effects that’s got. Is it a direct attribution to ROI?

[00:25:31] Is that your North star? And then say, if that’s not, can we move to time to value? Can we find a better method? And then can we start to align around this notion of outcomes? And then I’d say that step one.

[00:25:43] Dave Duke: [00:25:43] I’ll throw one into, since you got two of us, but it, I challenge everybody to really reflect on.

[00:25:49] Do we understand, or do you understand that the needs of your customer and come back to that often and when you think you do ask again, push, push on that question, because oftentimes we were not as in touch with the needs of our customer, as we think we are.

[00:26:05] Jason Whitehead: [00:26:05] Fantastic guys. Thank you so much.

[00:26:07]From both of us here, we really appreciate it. And for everyone listening down in the show notes, you’ll find links to the ebook. So go and check that out and links to get in touch with both Matt and Dave as well too. So guys, thank you so much for me over here in Washington,

[00:26:19] Jason Noble: [00:26:19] DC. Thank you for me guys.

[00:26:21] I love the two for the price of one bowl challenge question at the end. Super. I really enjoyed the conversation. This is a huge topic, and I’d love to do another one with you guys in the future.

[00:26:30] Dave Duke: [00:26:30] Cool. Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

[00:26:32] Mat Sweezey: [00:26:32] Cheers guys.