Guest: Alan Fecamp – The World of Recruitment in Customer Success

[00:00:00] Jason Noble: Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, everybody. Welcome to the latest episodes of the Jason’s Take on podcast with myself, Jason Noble here in a very cold and dark London in the UK and my partner in crime. Mr. Whitehead, say hello, Jason. Hello, Jason. Today we have another very special guest with us today, a very warm welcome to the head of Customer Success and the commercial practice at Zeren executive recruitment and head-hunting firm that work with innovative businesses to really help accelerate their growth.

[00:00:32] Jason Noble: And Alan, I think we, I’ve known you for a couple years now. You are, I think, one of the few recruiters out there, the exec recruiters with a real focus on customer success and commercial growth. And I know you’ve been driving this focus and change for a number of years, so really excited to have you.

[00:00:46] Jason Noble: I think when we were first, first met, you were back at PI recruitment, which I believe you’d come from your own business, just digital and just acquired that. So, a great journey you’ve been through. Yeah. I think your expertise is all around as scale up [00:01:00] startups and that really accelerated growth journey, and I think what a journey it’s been over the last couple years, particularly coming into where we are now at the end of 2022.

[00:01:10] Jason Noble: The emphasis has always been on the post-sale side of it, and I think you’ve worked. If I’m correct, some like 150 companies now helping them

[00:01:17] Alan Fecamp: build teams. So probably got up now. Jason. Thanks for having me. But I think it’s

[00:01:22] Jason Noble: awesome. I think you’ve, you’re also massively involved in CS community and we just missed catching up a pulse, so really warm welcome

[00:01:29] Jason Noble: Super excited to have you here. Please, in your own words, could you just tell our listeners a bit about your own journey, ton to Pie and then your own business and what’s been your motivation

[00:01:39] Alan Fecamp: in customer success? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Thanks for having me on both of you. Much appreciate it. So yeah, I suppose that the voice will stop to is Career recruiter 23 years?

[00:01:51] Alan Fecamp: I think it is. All in commercial recruitment. Going through scale up journeys with those particular companies ventured into the SaaS world. Back in 2009 when I formed just [00:02:00] digital by accident and truth. So just digital was set up to be a digital marketing and e-commerce recruitment company.

[00:02:06] Alan Fecamp: And by a I suppose by associations being in a digital world, we attracted lots of MarTech businesses to us who didn’t have a home to go to from a recruitment perspective. So that digital marketing, e-commerce recruitment company very quickly pivoted to coin a startup. Expression to becoming a B2B SaaS specialist within a few months.

[00:02:26] Alan Fecamp: And we never look back. We, it was only a boutiquey small specialist agency, never more than 10 heads but really carved out on each working with C through series B, high growth businesses that had some investor capital put in. Whether they be US founded, UK founded really wanted to go on that scaling journey and.

[00:02:44] Alan Fecamp: Our role within that was helping them build out the gtm the pathway into CS came about halfway through that time, and that was really when customer success was taking off. And, I can remember now the conversations being, we need, is it an account management role? Those account management roles suddenly became customer success roles [00:03:00] and alongside the business growth journey I spent most of my personal time as a recruiter.

[00:03:05] Alan Fecamp: Figuring out what this CS thing was and it just took off and started to build year on year. Going back about three and a half years now, I exited that business to Pie. And that was born out of wanting to go on a scaling journey moving away from what was a lifestyle business. So we, we did a jv and that went very well for a few years.

[00:03:23] Alan Fecamp: And then fast forward to where I am now I’m in Zeren doing more of the same, but on bigger scale. Yeah, that’s the whistle stop tour. So really like the, I suppose the takeaways, the last seven. Plus, years has all been in customer success for me. Certainly, majority of my personal building time has been helping scale CS teams.

[00:03:39] Jason Noble: I think you seeing someone like yourself that’s got that industry experience and you’ve seen cs. Come into its own being and then move to that focus is, it’s quite unique. There are lots of organizations around recruitment that say they’re doing it, but a lot of struggling with it. And I know in the couple of years that I’ve known you, we’ve seen some big changes in the industry, marketplace and the economy, as we said. [00:04:00]

[00:04:00] Jason Noble: How do you see the world of recruitment today and customer success? I see.

[00:04:04] Alan Fecamp: What are founders, CEOs and investors looking for

[00:04:07] Jason Noble: in leaders, and the highest that you’re.

[00:04:09] Alan Fecamp: So the recruitment world is interesting. So I suppose from a me and competition standpoint, I think, what you’ll find as a candidate is lots of sales recruitment companies trying to hire for CSMs, assuming it’s an extension of sales.

[00:04:21] Alan Fecamp: So I think that’s the, that’s the difficult challenge to navigate as a candidate. I think what we tend to walk into is, an educational play. We’re often dealing with a founder or perhaps a CRO that has come up through the sales route and is probably less well versed in customer success.

[00:04:39] Alan Fecamp: And quite often when we’re going in to talk about, the brief and what they want to do, what they’re understanding is if CS is quite apparent quite quickly that there’s, know, there’s a lot of education required from us around. What type of CS leader they need. So we would dig into things like the, their revenue model, their customer journey, what kind of CS motion they’re looking to build.

[00:04:59] Alan Fecamp: And quite often you’re [00:05:00] asking these questions and there isn’t a clear answer coming back. So you’re having to take them on a bit of an educational tour to actually get to the point where know, you’re telling them really what type of profile that they should be hiring in today.

[00:05:10] Jason Noble: Look, how does that change the relationship

[00:05:12] Alan Fecamp: you’ve got?

[00:05:12] Jason Noble: Cause where they’re, Are they looking for the right people? Are they just thinking they need cs?

[00:05:18] Alan Fecamp: No, I think what happens is it is tied to stage of growth and funding round. Generally, post series A retention really comes into the spotlight. I That’s that shift into. NR right now for obvious reasons.

[00:05:30] Alan Fecamp: But I think, for as long as I can remember, that retention number was key in how an investor would look at your series B round or how they would value your business. So I think I, I don’t think it’s, I suppose for a time it was a, You were, it was a nice to have.

[00:05:44] Alan Fecamp: Everyone else is doing it. I should probably do it. But then I think it got serious four, five years ago, and I think it was a real commercial awareness around just how much revenue was attributable post sale. And that’s when it, and that’s when it started to grow up. And there was a lot more [00:06:00] value placed on it.

[00:06:00] Alan Fecamp: But even now as we’re seeing in the current market, there’s a lot of people being laid off and so forth. It’s got a seat at the table, but whether it’s the same seat that sales has debatable yeah. So I think, but I think, no, I think it’s got serious. I think founders leadership teams do value CS an awful lot more.

[00:06:19] Alan Fecamp: Not all of them understand, what, in what inputs they need to put in place in their CS functions to deliver the right outputs. And I think it is that educational piece in there and just trying to drive that value from a leadership perspective. And you guys will know this, trying to drive it back up the, back up the chain to actually articulate what value CS brings to the business isn’t always that straightforward.

[00:06:39] Alan Fecamp: It’s that

[00:06:39] Jason Noble: commercial value. What commercial value does it have and how, I think there’s. There’s an impatience sometimes, you wanna see a return on that investment quite quickly. Yeah. And it’s understanding what that return will be and actually what timeframes you should look at.

[00:06:52] Alan Fecamp: Yeah, I think so.

[00:06:53] Alan Fecamp: Quite often the brief that we get, there are, there might be a CS team in place, but they, they haven’t hired a head of [00:07:00] director of VP leader before and it’s coming and, there isn’t necessarily always a problem to fix, like a churn issue. It’s coming and overlay a framework over something that is there, but we don’t know why.

[00:07:11] Alan Fecamp: It’s good. Yeah, they’re not, if it’s onboarding, they’re not measuring time to value, time to live. They’re not doing any of the, the basic framework stuff that enables them to. Effectively to the board or actually to work effectively with their customers. So quite often that’s the scenario in these series A businesses, it’s right.

[00:07:29] Alan Fecamp: We need somebody to come in and actually, show us what great looks like, design the playbook and execute it for us. And you are telling the leadership team what needs to be done. That’s quite a common brief that we’ll get.

[00:07:41] Jason Whitehead: Wow that’s fascinating to see how it’s going there.

[00:07:43] Jason Whitehead: As I think about where we are, some interesting economic times, and in some pivot points where you still see a lot of CS jobs being advertised and people struggle to find qualified candidates not candidates, qualified ones, and then in the next breath we hear a lot more people are, putting the breaks on hiring and things are slowing down and people have recessionary [00:08:00] fears.

[00:08:00] Jason Whitehead: How are you seeing things evolve today and what do you see is the biggest challenges and. Where are we and where do you think it’s gonna be

in

[00:08:06] Alan Fecamp: the next few months? That’s really good question. I’ve tested a theory here. So during Nick Me’s opening, Speech pulse. He quoted a stat from Bain where I think they’d surveyed a thousand companies and 90% were even intending on preserving their CS function or expanding it in 2023.

[00:08:30] Alan Fecamp: So I put a poll out on LinkedIn last week just to test that theory. And actually it’s bang on. So I’ve had I’ve had over 200 votes on it so far, all from CS people in CS hiring positions. And 48% are intending on expanding. It’s only 8% are intending on reducing head count in CS next year.

[00:08:50] Alan Fecamp: So I’m taking, I’ll take that. I’m taking a lot of confidence from that. That said, my inbox from a. Individual contributor perspective in [00:09:00] CS has got busier. So I think there is some movement in the market at an IC level. I spoke to one CS leader today who’s, he’s down, he’s lost three people out of a team of 20.

[00:09:10] Alan Fecamp: So I think what you’re gonna see is probably more, probably a higher number of accounts per CSM. It’s quite likely, see if you’re losing some heads, obviously expecting to do more with less I’m pretty confident we’re not gonna see real big numbers flood into the market. We did see that during Covid, and I think people then struggled to hire quickly enough on the other side of it and got burnt.

[00:09:32] Alan Fecamp: So I’m hopeful that the CS space will hold up pretty well during 2023. It’s really busy from a leadership perspective. There’s lots of roll around. If you look around on LinkedIn, I’m seeing new stuff every day still. Lots of people pop up in my feed having landed new roles.

[00:09:45] Alan Fecamp: So it still feels busy out there. We’ve had lots of pitches, lots of inbound. It still feels pretty busy. We don’t have a crystal ball. But right now it feels like it’s in a reasonable place.

[00:09:56] Jason Whitehead: That’s good to hear. Any predictions on if there is a slowdown?

[00:09:58] Jason Whitehead: How long you think it would [00:10:00] last for the CS

[00:10:00] Jason Noble: recruitment?

[00:10:02] Alan Fecamp: Oh not an economist, but I, I think, yeah the general rule is like the cuts all seem to be like 25% of headcount. Yeah, I think it, it will go, it’ll go with a recession, whatever recession we end up in, which I’m, everyone’s assuming we will. I think it will follow that pattern, but actually I’m pretty hopeful.

[00:10:18] Alan Fecamp: Once you find a bottom in any market, that’s when he starts to start to build back out of it. So I think if we get a, if we get a tough spot, it’s probably gonna be in the first couple of quarters of next year.

[00:10:26] Jason Noble: How are you seeing that, the quality of kind of candidates in the marketplace?

[00:10:30] Jason Noble: Cause there’s a, there’s lots of new people coming in. Again, a past event, it was really interesting to see the number of people that hadn’t been Yeah.

[00:10:39] Alan Fecamp: Post event before. And that,

[00:10:40] Jason Noble: that I think’s indicative of the number of new people coming. But what do you feel like in terms of the quality and level of experience to people Yeah.

[00:10:48] Jason Noble: Versus the roles that you’ve got

[00:10:49] Alan Fecamp: to match them up with? Yeah. I think so my, my focus being primarily leadership if I look at the UK, it’s a tiny pool of. VPs of cs [00:11:00] 374 to be precise. It’s not, that’s not a big number when you overlay that with the thousands and thousands of B2B SaaS companies out there.

[00:11:06] Alan Fecamp: But in theory, we’ll need a CS leader at some stage. There’ll be more. Once you tear that down to director and head of, then there’s, it’s a a big number. I. There’s lots of people going in at mid-market and I think that’s where the term will likely happen if there is some fallout. There’s kind of high velocity, probably 18 months to three years of experience.

[00:11:30] Alan Fecamp: Lower touch type plays that can be automated. Where some of the scale methodology kicks in, that can probably be soaked up into some of those higher velocity type CS motions. If I think there’s gonna be some fallout it will likely be there. There’s lots of new people into the market cuz it’s such a big growth area.

[00:11:48] Alan Fecamp: The growth in CS leadership, you, on your VP level has been 66% increasing people on LinkedIn carrying that VP title. It’s still growing. There aren’t enough people. So you think that supply [00:12:00] demand thing is playing Absolutely. At the moment. So

[00:12:03] Jason Whitehead: When you think of So many new people coming into and coming into their first VP role that may have never had ’em before.

[00:12:08] Jason Whitehead: What advice do you give to candidates? Say, this is how you can really distinguish yourself, and here’s where you need to prove that you can deliver excellence to a potential.

[00:12:16] Alan Fecamp: Employer. Yeah. I thought, and this isn’t CS specific. I think it’s about the growth mindset stuff. And actually, and CS we’re blessed with so many communities and people wanting to help.

[00:12:26] Alan Fecamp: There’s, and actually the challenge is finding your way to the right material. Cause it’s, there’s so much content out there. I would say, from. From a CS perspective or from anybody’s perspective, use the resources available to you in the market. You’ve got some great communities out there, like gain, grow, retain, and amazing.

[00:12:41] Alan Fecamp: A list of amazing podcasts like this one. Absorb it. Learn, learn from the people that have been doing it for a long time and invest that time to, to try and, try and better yourself. Learn new methodologies. There’s been some great articles posted recently about, know, where CS is heading in 2023 and what impact that’s gonna mean from a revenue perspective.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Alan Fecamp: You really just need to digest as much of that content as possible and, formulate your own opinion and perspective on what’s gonna happen. I think the people that interview you well turn up with an opinion. It’s quite a common question for an interview to ask you what does CS mean to you?

[00:13:14] Alan Fecamp: And it’s quite an ambiguous one, and if you’re fairly junior and yeah, you’ve just landed in cs, it’s probably quite a hard one to answer. So I think, just forming a really educated opinion and using the content out there will make a massive difference to you to upskill yourself.

[00:13:29] Alan Fecamp: I like that

[00:13:30] Jason Noble: thinking cuz it is, it’s something that still, I think it’s one of the challenges we’ve got is that the definition is very different for different organizations and individuals, but I think what it shows is, that thinking, you want someone to understand that it’s a commercial mindset, that it’s a go mind function and that can come out in that question.

[00:13:48] Alan Fecamp: Yeah, it can come out in that question and just have a holistic view of, the different, I suppose the different. CS models out there, some being more commercial than others. If you’ve got, if you’ve got that knowledge, you also, it means you’re probably gonna apply to the [00:14:00] right types of companies for you and find the right home for you based upon what you feel comfortable doing as a CSM.

[00:14:06] Alan Fecamp: So I think just learn. Learn as much as you can. And Cs, you’re blessed with having more means to do that, that most other functions.

[00:14:13] Jason Noble: What are your thoughts as we go into next year? I What are. What are you expecting to happen in the industry? What are your thoughts about what needs to change?

[00:14:21] Jason Noble: What would you like to see change? Yeah, I,

[00:14:24] Alan Fecamp: thoughts on trends, scale, digital CS and scale is coming up daily, but the moment the need to do more with less is driving that. Obviously from a cost perspective I think that is gonna be really tough for companies to hire.

[00:14:39] Alan Fecamp: There are so few scale people. Out there that have done it and are seasoned in it. I’ve run multiple searches for scale CSMs and scale leaders. It’s a tiny amount of people that actually have true expertise in that. Often they’re coming out of the product led growth companies cuz they’re great at it.

[00:14:56] Alan Fecamp: So I think that’s the change that we’ll see next year as a real uptick in [00:15:00] demand for digital CSMs and scale CSMs. I love that area. I find it fascinating. It was pretty apparent that Pulse, there was a big theme around that, for obvious reasons. Obviously trying to drive, community and so on.

[00:15:11] Alan Fecamp: Those are the really interesting tracks I was, I geeked into. So interesting to see how that plays out next year and how companies plug that skillset.

[00:15:22] Jason Whitehead: Sure. I think that’s always gonna be a challenge when there is such demand and not enough qualified people in there. What what advice do you give to hiring managers around that?

[00:15:31] Jason Whitehead: Where say, Hey, this may not be the perfect fit or the perfect yeah. You’re looking for, but either given your budget or expertise, how do you guide them to come up with the next best candidate to Yeah.

[00:15:42] Alan Fecamp: I think account velocity. Yeah. As long as there’ve been some level of automation. And some level of, whether, one, one to many activities.

[00:15:51] Alan Fecamp: You, if you are, if you’ve got a CS leader who’s managing multiple segments and they’ve got. A higher number of low value customers at the bottom end of their funnel. [00:16:00] In theory, they should be applying some type of digital CS motion in there. You can look to do that.

[00:16:07] Alan Fecamp: They won’t be a pure place digital CS expert, but they should have exposure to it. And I’d apply that on a CSM level as well. People that are managing high volumes of customers should, in theory, have some level. Digital CS expertise. Generally when you’re hiring for those digital CSMs, they’re not coming from pure play CS backgrounds.

[00:16:27] Alan Fecamp: They’re coming from CS ops, possibly marketing quite often. They’re coming from a real broad range of backgrounds. Cause if you look at the skill set that’s required around kind of content creation, Running webinars, marketing, building out communities. It’s a quite a heavy marketing skill set in there.

[00:16:44] Alan Fecamp: So if you’ve got somebody that’s got some customer facing experience, plus some marketing, maybe some CS ops, blending those skill sets together on a csm, individual contributor level, that tends to work quite well as well.

[00:16:56] Jason Noble: In the conversations you have with kind of the CEOs [00:17:00] and founders, what are their biggest gaps that they’re coming to you with, How are they seeing things when they’re looking to you to help them build out their commercial teams, their GTM strategies?

[00:17:08] Jason Noble: What are the biggest issues for.

[00:17:09] Alan Fecamp: On a CS level? Sorry. Or just on a general? Just

[00:17:11] Jason Noble: generally. Just generally, what are the biggest challenges they’re seeing and what are they coming to you guys for? Why are these people

[00:17:17] Alan Fecamp: we need help? Yeah. I It’s all leadership.

[00:17:19] Alan Fecamp: It’s leadership challenges, whether it be a cro, vp, sales vp, cs, I think Fi, finding the right leader that wraps around. Their sales motion or their CS motion, that’s where they struggle. If you’ve got, we’ve done an assignment recently for a VP of CS for a an e-commerce tech business.

[00:17:37] Alan Fecamp: 12,000 customers, 2000 paying customers. How do we drive operational change into this business? And actually, we’re now doing a VP of sales. We’ve done a VP of product and the remit across all of them was fairly similar. It’s all about. Aligning to the, the type of customer, lower acv, that’s where the challenge is from these founders.

[00:17:57] Alan Fecamp: They’re looking for us to help them solve, it’s not just right, we need, [00:18:00] someone that’s built out a great CS team. It gets really granular into, know, the type of customer. The ACV sales velocity. And that’s where you have to get really deep into the market to, to find the right profiles.

[00:18:12] Alan Fecamp: So that’s where we’re helping them is, going out, doing these big research pieces of market mapping and figuring out there are only 10 people in the world that exist that do what you’re looking for, and breaking the bad news to them that they might have to change their minds or concede on certain

[00:18:26] Jason Noble: areas.

[00:18:26] Jason Noble: Do you find many organizations that, that, that must be on the most interesting parts of the

[00:18:30] Alan Fecamp: job as well, is that

[00:18:31] Jason Noble: market research and actually realizing there is a small number of people that fit everything you ask for? Yeah. Do you find your, these organizations, are they looking for industry vertical experience?

[00:18:42] Jason Noble: So you mentioned about the e-commerce role. Do they. That as being critical versus someone being a commercial customer success leader? What are you seeing the trend there?

[00:18:51] Alan Fecamp: Yeah. It depends on the stage of growth. So sub 10 million, I think the main expertise sorry, sub 10 million are the main expertise tends to be.[00:19:00]

[00:19:01] Alan Fecamp: The forefront of people’s minds is really early stage. You’re gonna have that dynamic with the CS leader working closely with the product team cause they’re probably still scrapping around trying to get product market fit and you need that relationship to work. One, one scale kicks in and the product market fit is there.

[00:19:18] Alan Fecamp: Really see a brief that requires the main expertise. Okay. It’s much more around how you work operationally. Yeah. Team size, customer numbers, tooling. Growth journey and acv, those are the things that you really align to. We kind of work in that framework. You’re pretty close to finding the right match.

[00:19:37] Jason Noble: This is, I Jason, you and I have had, there’s another podcast that we’ve got about exactly this. Yeah. Is it industry ex or domain experience versus that leadership thing? I think this is the conclusion that we came to as well, that there’s a. As organizations grow and scale that the focus is on, I need someone that understands how this leadership piece works.

[00:19:54] Jason Noble: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:55] Alan Fecamp: Yeah. And it’s hard to actually pin a number on it, but I think the general market perception is [00:20:00] in or around that 10 million r mark. My view is it’s as you partly linked to funding round as well. Yeah,

[00:20:06] Jason Noble: I think the latter.

[00:20:06] Alan Fecamp: Definitely. Yeah. The vc, the VCs, PE companies will drive the thinking on that for sure.

[00:20:12] Jason Whitehead: Wow. Alan, thank you so much for being with us. We’ve loved your insights here. Before we go, we always like to ask everyone a bold challenge question, looking into your crystal ball. How do you Yes. And commercial recruitment evolving in the next three to five years?

[00:20:25] Alan Fecamp: That’s a question, isn’t it?

[00:20:26] Alan Fecamp: Everyone else goes out business and it’s just left with there. That’s what what’s gonna happen. I. What am I seeing right now? Yeah. I think need to have deep, functional expertise is gonna become more and more, and this is through the lens of, technology focused recruitment companies, that deep level of expertise, functional alignment, is gonna really become beneficial.

[00:20:49] Alan Fecamp: I think. We touched on at the start of the call. I think, me sitting with a founder, business leader and talking CS shop for two hours, I think that’s what people are [00:21:00] buying into rather than the traditional, we’re working with five agencies and we want those of cvs through the door quickly.

[00:21:05] Alan Fecamp: I think that’s fine at an individual contributor level to a point, but I think it can get more granular and sophisticated. You’re gonna get better. Outcomes from your hiring and better performing people into your business. And I think that’s where it’ll go. I think we’ve seen more retained agencies crop up over the last two years.

[00:21:22] Alan Fecamp: More people pushing for retained work cause it’s harder to fill jobs and they wanna protect themselves. And I think that drives a higher level of expectation from the customer as well if recruitment’s got a bad rep out there. I think lots of people in my profession don’t lend themselves any favor.

[00:21:36] Alan Fecamp: And I think, I think what you’re gonna see over the next year in particular is the standards being driven up. Cause people are gonna be really fighting hard for business. And I think that’s a good thing.

[00:21:46] Jason Noble: Alan, massive thank you, as Jason said. Really interesting.

[00:21:49] Alan Fecamp: I love

[00:21:49] Jason Noble: your, as I said, I’ve known you for a few years.

[00:21:51] Jason Noble: The domain expertise really shines through and I think it’s just so nice and refreshing just to hear really how it is because it. [00:22:00] It’s a massively changing, fast changing market as well as something that’s evolved massively. So to get your insight is really

[00:22:06] Alan Fecamp: great. Big thing. No, enjoyed it. No, enjoyed it.

[00:22:08] Alan Fecamp: Thank you for having me. Of

[00:22:09] Jason Whitehead: course. And before you go, we always like to invite you to do a shameless plug. So if you wanna plug your company yourself, whatever, it’s that people know. Yeah.

[00:22:16] Alan Fecamp: Love to. So I’ll tell you about, I’ll tell you about zn. Sozan are Owned by an executive search business called Reva, who are a 20 plus year C-suite operator who also have their own private equity fund as well called El Capital.

[00:22:30] Alan Fecamp: They’re heavily involved in the investor world. Born there and about five years ago, really to go on a longer journey with the technology companies that we, we recruit for. So what was tending to happen is they’d place a CEO. A question will come in, can you help us find a Chief Revenue Officer or a VP sales or a VPCs?

[00:22:47] Alan Fecamp: Invariably the answer would be no, because they were so heavily tied to that C level and that’s why Zern was formed. So Zero now operates across. It really reflects our customers. So we have the commercial team, which is where I see, which is [00:23:00] everything gtm. We have the technology team, which is engineering product.

[00:23:06] Alan Fecamp: And beta. And then we have the operations team, which is finance people and strategies. So we really align ourselves to the kind of core areas of the clients that we recruit for. Our world is really partnering with the VCs and private equity companies across their port coast. So we’ll go in and build out the leadership teams and then actually do big team build projects beneath that.

[00:23:26] Alan Fecamp: Once we’ve executed at a senior level. So yeah, and we work with some amazing customers and lots of them. So yeah, that’s the zero plug. And I’m here to do the CS piece is the final part. .

[00:23:37] Jason Whitehead: Excellent. So we appreciate that so much. Check out zn if you’re in the market for recruitment and we’ll catch you again soon on the JS take on.

[00:23:44] Jason Whitehead: Thank you so much. Thanks guys.

[00:23:46] Alan Fecamp: Thanks a thank you.