Guest: Mike Sasaki – Customer Journey Mapping & Programatizing Customer Success

Customer Journey Mapping and Programatizing Customer Success
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The Jasons Take On...
Guest: Mike Sasaki - Customer Journey Mapping & Programatizing Customer Success

Episode Description

In this episode, we are joined by Mike Sasaki, VP, Global Head of Customer Success & Support at Mitek. Mike shares his insights with customer journey mapping and how you can use a journey map to programatize high-impact customer success services.

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Meet Our Guest

Mike Sasaki

Mike Sasaki

Vice President, Global Head of Customer Success & Support

Mike leads the Global Customer Success & Support organizations at Mitek – partnering with customers and partners to achieve their business objectives through optimal use of Mitek products. 

Mitek’s Global Customer Success and Support drives long-lasting relationships, and evangelizes the customer and partner perspective within Mitek. With over a decade of experience in SaaS/Customer Success (CallidusCloud and Oracle), Mike has worked with some of the largest brands around the globe.

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Jason Noble: [00:00:00] Good afternoon. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Jason’s take on podcast series with myself. Jason Noble here in London and Mr. Whitehead over in sunny, Washington, Jace. Hi everyone. Thanks

Jason Whitehead: [00:00:11] for joining us today. Say to be here.

Jason Noble: [00:00:12] We’ve got another exciting episode today with another guest.

It’s Mike’s Saki, sorry, Mike vice president of global head of customer success and support over at my tech systems. So we’re really excited to have Mike here with us. Mike’s got a really exciting, quite exceptional background, running, building support organizations and success organizations. And also with his time at MyTech kind of partnering and building out with customers, their customer objectives, what they’re doing, and also putting together customer journey maps.

So we’ll get to have a conversation today with Mike talking about customer journey maps and some of the really cool stuff that the guys at my tech are doing. So really excited about this. Welcome Mike.

Mike Sasaki: [00:00:49] Hey Jason, thank you very much. I am equally excited to be here and thank you for the opportunity.

Jason Noble: [00:00:54] You’re very welcome. I think this is a topic that I know Jason and I have spoke before about this, and we can add a chat earlier on it’s such an important topic as to how you. That the time and effort you put in customer journey mapping what it means, the results of it. So to actually have a kind of a focused conversation around it, I think it’s going to add a real lot of volume for our listeners, but you might just, as a start, I gave a kind of a little dotted intro to you there, but why don’t you give the listeners a quick intro to yourself, your background and what you’re doing at MiTek.

Mike Sasaki: [00:01:23] Yeah, happy to. So I I started up in customer success in 2008. I joined a startup, so I have a lot of startup experience and my role was really to make sure customers stayed with us and that they actually paid us. So I didn’t know it was called customer success at the time. But that’s what I was doing.

So I went from a 10 person startup. We were acquired and went to Callidus cloud, a couple of hundred people there. We grew from 600 million to over a billion. I left CallidusCloud, went to Oracle, got that huge company experience. And I took all of that and landed at my tech to build out their global customer success org.

So I’ve had a interesting background, I think in that, I’ve had the startup experience, mid company and large, extra large with Oracle. And now at my tech where I’ve definitely learned the most that I’ve learned at any of my stuff. Of

Jason Noble: [00:02:15] all of those different kinds of companies.

Can I ask, do you have a preference? Do you like the small scale startup? You’ve gone to massive global organizations like Oracle, what’s your preference and how have you found differences in customer successes? There?

Mike Sasaki: [00:02:27] The grass is always greener in a way. So I when I was at the startup, I was thinking, man, am I going to get paid tomorrow?

And sometimes I did sometimes times they didn’t and that’s the startup world. And at CallidusCloud it was a lot of fun. Seeing a company grow from 600 million to a billion. I feel like I’m dodging your question.  And then at Oracle is huge company. So my preference is a company like my tech very convenient, cause I’m at my tech now, but.

Growing and starting something, but also having enough money that I know that the company has enough money that I know that I’m going to get paid when it’s payday. And not so huge, like Oracle where it’s so bureaucratic that, I had to do 20 presentations just to make a small change right.

In our process. And that was painful. So I do like the size of my tech, 300, 400 people, $700 million in market cap. I do the public company as well. That’s my preference.

Jason Noble: [00:03:19] We’ve I, I know a lot of the stuff that you’ve talked about before Mike, and when you, and I spoke to each other, the first time you talk around the idea of programmatize in customer success.

Could you talk to us a bit more about what you mean by that and why there’s a, why there’s a need to do it like this?

Mike Sasaki: [00:03:33] Yeah. Promo problematizing customer success is a it’s an evolution, right? So when you first joined a company like my tech and you’re the first employee in customer success.

You’re really trying to get credibility first. And so you save a couple of customers. You turn a customer red, the green, you give back time to the product team. When I joined my tech, the product team was talking to customers all the time. If you can give them back time, give sales back time, you get credibility, you look like some sort of magician.

How did you do that? How did you actually told a customer? No, and they didn’t, they didn’t leave. So that’s the first thing you do. And then you build up relationships and sales and advocates and things like that. But my ultimate goal was to programmatize customer success, right?

Because the thing about customer successes, it’s great. Year one, everyone’s excited. Year two. It’s are you growing revenue? Year three, is this thing’s really expensive? And unless you have this goal of turning it into a program where you can get more productivity from each head count and it’s not growing linearly with what, the number of customers that is the ultimate goal.

And then you can also take advantage of the skillset, the natural skillset. Of each CSM and plug them into the part of the journey, the customer journey where there’s they’re strongest. And then you can really have a very efficient program and machine running that ultimately benefits the customer because that’s what you’re trying to do.

Jason Whitehead: [00:04:56] That’s great. Thank you. I’d like to hear that idea of not having that, excuse me, that linear movement between staff and growth. I think that’s really important. Can you talk us through, what are those, what are the challenges or risks of this approach in. Okay. How many companies do you actually see taking this pro John?

Mike Sasaki: [00:05:10] Yeah, you’re seeing more and more now. And for good reason, I think there’s just more data that this is working.  The challenges are there’s a lot of work in developing the program, before you see any benefit, and you’re selling them on it on a, on an idea that you think is going to work.

And depending on how much capital you have, you’re going to get people that buy into it or don’t, and you have to invest in the beginning. And you have to convince someone that is worth investing, right? So those are the challenges, the risks of programmatized thing, I think is if you set it and forget it, you’re going to fail, you got to check in and make sure that you understand what success looks like and that you are iterating. And that the program also involves other organizations. If the customer success org had complete control over everything. Wouldn’t that be nice. That’s never the case. We’re borrowing and begging for resources.

So it goes back to having advocates, right? When you first start, because you’re going to have to get that cross-functional interlock of internal resources. And without that you have nothing

Jason Whitehead: [00:06:15] right.  Love what you said too about, getting people to invest in that long-term commitment.

I’ve seen many organizations, they’ll set up a customer success team. They’ll have him around for a year and hire some staff and maybe train them up, but they’ve lost that commitment and they get lost on the trajectory of nowhere. We’re building this to get the value later. Any tips around how to do that or what’s been effective for you in terms of getting that.

That willingness to invest in it and to stick with it over the long-term that’s such a

Mike Sasaki: [00:06:38] challenge. I think it is tough. And if it was easy, there would be a book written or a one pager and everyone would just follow it because it would be so easy to get investment on it. I think there’s a couple of things.

One. You have to, it goes back to getting the advocates right in the executive team. I’ve been fortunate enough to report to the CEO that helps and he understands customer success. That helps a lot as well, but let’s say that’s not the case. I think at a certain point you have to lean into revenue and revenue growth.

And that is something that I would have not said five years ago, maybe even three years ago, when I started at my tech, I was the peer CSM. I I’m trustworthy. I’m a trusted advisor. I don’t talk about revenue, blah, blah, blah. All that, that’s shifted. So now you’re starting to see customer success.

Managers and leaders really lean into the revenue piece because that’s where you’re going to get the investment. And so if he could forecast it out and say, we’re going to grow revenue and you have signs of that, that’ll help. It all comes back to revenue. And I think one thing that I try to do is talk revenue from my level and up.

And talk customer success from my level and down, and we drive revenue, but it’s an outcome of doing the right things, but I will talk revenue to my managers and my peers all day long.

Jason Whitehead: [00:07:50] That’s such a great distinction. I like that.

Jason Noble: [00:07:53] I think it’s something that we’ve spoken about, the idea of commercial customer success.

I You are there to drive value for your customers and accelerate that drive to value. And I think that there has to be a commercial element to it. I think the, the discussion of our own resources and what a success team looks like. I’ve, we’ve all been in that situation before and you can see there’s a lot of investment made to begin with.

And then over time, I think when you can’t, you aren’t bringing the value that was expected and maybe that was miscommunicated, they do become challenges. And the teams quite often, you see them D scale kind of scale the wrong way. And that’s a problem that a lot of startups have.

Mike Sasaki: [00:08:29] Yeah, absolutely. Lincoln Murphy.

I was at a session that he did and he said, it is a commercial relationship. It’s a business, it’s a contract they’re paying you. It’s a commercial relationship.

Jason Noble: [00:08:40] Commercial two-way

Mike Sasaki: [00:08:41] relationship, right? Yeah. Yep, absolutely. So

Jason Whitehead: [00:08:48] I’m just following up with that revenue discussion piece, because I think this is interesting, you’ve been there a while. You’ve gotten that commitment and you’ve had the time to do that. Do you find it easier now that you have this proven success? And when you say to ask for additional staffing or resources, are they more likely to go ahead with it because they understand and supply there’s going to be a revenue commitment or boots for that?

Or is it still a challenge every day to get to fight tooth and nail for all the

Mike Sasaki: [00:09:11] resources you need? Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I’m glad you brought it up because this is something that I hadn’t thought about in awhile, but early on, I sold suddenly makes it sound like it’s not based on facts.

It is based on that. I was aligned with the executive team on how we’re going to decide when we need another headcount. You can use cost to revenue. We use that. So when cost of revenue gets to a certain percentage, Time to hire. Of course that sounds simple. And that changes, now I go back to my CEO and say, Hey, constant revenue hit this certain number of time to hire.

He says not so fast, let’s develop a different staffing model. So now you layer on not only cost to revenue, but other things like, how many customers can as CSM manage at one time and how are we going to scale that up with this program? So luckily I have this program in place and I can connect the dots there.

But it, it does get easier. I would say, align on what metrics you’re going to use to drive headcount. So then, it becomes more of a math question. Then I think I need another CSM because I think so. Wow. That’s great.

Jason Whitehead: [00:10:15] I like that

Jason Noble: [00:10:15] With the customer journey. I It can be a really complex beast for want of a better word and very difficult to get it right.

Are there any kind of areas of it and parts of it that you’d recommend organizations and CS leaders to focus on initially and why and what your thoughts are on that?

Mike Sasaki: [00:10:31] Yeah, it’s all about onboarding. When I joined my tech, we were going to introduce the CSM at GoLive, which could be six months later after signing or longer.

We moved that up. So it’s at signing, the CSM is is introduced. One thing that we’ve changed this year, though, is that we’ve created during the onboarding part of the customer journey map, that onboarding phase we’ve created a customer onboarding manager. So there’s no CSM involved customer onboarding manager.

It looks a lot like a CSM, more project management focused and is responsible for getting that customer successful. And we have a transaction level that the customer must hit and we deemed them successful at that point. And then they’re transitioned to a CSM, there’s overlap of course, during that transition.

But the onboarding phase is the most important because it sets the trajectory. I sets the relationship. And we focused and we’ve doubled down on that investment in onboarding. And we are starting to see, and we’ll see see it pay off in we’re a transaction-based business. So the revenue coming in earlier means the transactions are coming in earlier at a significant amount.

And so that’s how we’ll measure it.

Jason Whitehead: [00:11:37] Introducing that specialized role, the onboarding manager has that. And confusing or open for the customers of maybe we had the salespeople and I have an onboarding manager and then I have a CSM. And that I probably have. I’m assuming you have support in there as well, too, somewhere along the lines.

How has it been from the customer experience or customer’s perspective of they understand when to go to whom and at what point do they stop going to an onboarding manager and transition that relationship over. Yeah. So

Mike Sasaki: [00:12:01] there’s really two roles was involved in onboarding it’s the customer onboarding manager, and then the technical resource, which is a solutions architect pretty straight forward.

And you’ve seen that before. But the customer onboarding manager is that one throat to choke for the customer. What I found, and this is interesting, in the identity space, the word, the term CSM, or the role of CSM, that’s confusing because they’re not used to having them.  Banks, we work with a lot of banks.

They have not seen a customer success manager before in identity. And so an onboarding manager in a way is a more understandable title. Then a customer success manager for them. And so we that’s how we communicate it. This is your person that you will work with and we mapped together as well.

And we do that in one of the first meetings. This is how we’re going to map with you.

Jason Noble: [00:12:47] I think that’s such a great point because it is, I think you’ve got a number of challenges in customer success. One is. Your own business might not understand what it really is. And I’d had actually a podcast that we recorded just last night.

There is still one of the problems we’ve got is it’s still misunderstood and it means different things to different people quite rightly. Your own customer success is very specific to them. So you’ve got that misunderstanding. And then you’re trying to position yourself to your customers as what it is.

There’s still a mystique to it. If you want, and people not understanding it, is it part of support? Is it account management? It is. I think the term itself can confuse people. I In the essence, you’re there to help drive your customer success. So you could say it was very clear as to what it is, but a lot of people still misunderstand it.

Mike Sasaki: [00:13:28] I misunderstand it. If you tell me or DSM at a company, I don’t know what type of CSM you are, because that’s so broad. The range right. At Oracle, I was a much different CSM then than I was at other companies. I did much less. As you would imagine. So it is confusing. I’ve thought about maybe just renaming the whole team identity consultants.


Jason Whitehead: [00:13:48] Interesting. I

Jason Noble: [00:13:49] think it’s, it is, the problem you’ve got is you’re also competing now for time against other CSMs from other organizations, right? So you’ve got one, one stakeholder or a vendor that might be dealing with it. It’s, let’s be very conservative. Say he deals with five pieces of technology.

He’s got five different CSMs who are all going to have a different approach, so it can get very confusing, very quickly. It

Mike Sasaki: [00:14:13] can. And then that gets into the, my rant about business reviews and QPRs. And you have to understand that the customer that you have has probably 10 to 20 vendors, that’s 80 QVR is a year you’re asking them to do right.

So I, I have a whole thing on business, you, but we could save that for another podcast.

Jason Whitehead: [00:14:32] Wow. So actually I like one of things you said a minute ago, like during the onboarding process, you really come up in fear together with them. What are we going to do? What a success for both of us. Can you chat a little more detail around that and how that works and frankly, Are your customers used to working with the vendor that way, instead of completely new experience

Mike Sasaki: [00:14:49] for them, they’re not used to it.

So we when I say we doubled down, we’ve added a data analyst to the customer. I was tired of having to ask for data analyst support. I have a technical account manager on my team. I was tired of AF having to ask for that resource. So we got to have control over that. And what we’ve done is within the onboarding piece of the customer journey.

There’s different phases. And we track how many days there are in each phase. And we can predict out what the data analysts, when are they going to be successful? What month are they going to be successful? And, based on what they did that week or the data that we have for the week, we can see where they’re going when they’re going to be successful.

And if it’s too long down the road, we can make adjustments. So we have measurements in place. For each phase we have a number of days. That we think they should be in each phase. We have alerts that go off if they’re over, if they’re under as well. That’s great. And then the ultimate measure is this term successful in production and that’s a transaction count that they must hit.

And if they’re there, if they’re on track to hit that great. If they’re not something’s wrong and we got to fix it right.

Jason Noble: [00:15:51] We’re looking at the kind of customer journey process and, starting it off. What’s the right way to go about putting together a program to do this and this kind of programmatize in customer success.

How do you start the program off? Yeah, get the sponsorship and buy-in

Mike Sasaki: [00:16:07] and identify the key moments, right? The moments that matter for the customer,  what are those one is onboarding, right? The other is around go live.  And once they hit successful in production, that’s important.

And I think one thing that we haven’t done yet that I would. We’re going to need to do, going to do, is we we’re big believers. I am a big believer in NPS. I know NPS has been around for a while. A lot of customer success leaders. Don’t like it for us. It’s the right measurement. And I wanted to turn it into a customer journey based NPS.

So at each. Moment that matters. We MPS them. So then you can line up your NPS scores at those moments, like in onboarding and you can see what the scores are and if you have a problem there or not, sometimes the problem that’s shown in a NPS score is not easily tied to what part of the journey they’re talking about that you need to fix.

So this is a good way to line it up. I don’t think I haven’t answered your question, Jason. I started going off on a tangent about

Jason Noble: [00:17:03] NPS that’s. Cool. No, that’s cool. This is why we do this. We like these conversations. I think what we’ve, I don’t think there’s a single podcast we’ve done where you stick to script, even the words we have but it’s MPS is absolutely fundamental, but it’s more.

And how did we start this? What are some of the key things,  is NPS and the results of MPS, does that become the trigger for it? Or are there other things that might happen?

Mike Sasaki: [00:17:26] Where do you start the yeah. Where do you start the onboarding program? So you have to determine  what metrics matter that you can measure, for us, it was successful in production, it a transaction count that matters to us. So then you center around that’s important to us. What leads into that. And the number one thing was onboarding that leads into it. And and so that’s why we focused on it. I think I’ve been saying onboarding a lot, but for us, that’s super important for others.

I’ll have guests that’s super important as well, but that’s not the end successful and production is not the end. Lincoln Murphy has this thing where he says if a customer is not growing, that’s a health risk. And I agree with that. If a customer is staying flat that’s a problem.

So then you got to programmatize that part of it, right? The expansion piece. So after after the customer hits successful in production, what is the next part of that program and who needs to be involved? And what does that look like? That business review looks a lot different then than it looked like during onboarding.

And I’m a big believer in not having a business review templates. A generic template. I’ve been in business reviews. I go in with my generic template. I talk for an hour and they’re like, great, great meeting, great deck, whatever. I couldn’t tell you what we learned. I couldn’t tell you the value.

I couldn’t tell if we got anything out of it. And they probably couldn’t either. So I think it’s really important to to look at, each phase differently and it even comes into like how you design the business review.

Jason Noble: [00:18:46] I think it is so important. You’re so right. That there are very different phases.

You’ve almost got journeys per phase. You’ve got a kind of a top level way of doing it, but then individual break it down at more detail and you get down to a very granular detail and it may be different people that are leading those segments of it.

Mike Sasaki: [00:19:01] That’s the key, right? So you have different people leading each phase.

We’re not there yet. We have a team leading the onboarding phase and they will just do onboarding. They will get really great at onboarding and they have the skillset for onboarding. I can’t put another CSM in that onboarding role, which is the mistake I made. If we’re talking lessons learned, I thought every CSM could do onboarding.

So I know I can’t, I’m just not good at that. My project management skills are weak. And I know that and that’s okay. I’m strong in other areas, but you got to put people in the places where they’re strong. And another thing with people that are CSMs is there’s a lot of focus on improving their weaknesses.

I do the opposite. I focus on their strengths. I’m not interested in improving their weaknesses unless they’re really bad, but let’s focus on their strengths. Let’s put them in the right position. So project managers onboarding, expansion, people put them there, right? Red to green.

If I need to turn off your customer red to green, it’d be nice to have a program for that. This is your red to green specialist. So things like that.

Jason Whitehead: [00:19:59] That’s fantastic. I’m curious about two things, there one you mentioned that was a lesson learned around that love to hear some of the other key lessons learned that you’ve had.

And then also as well, if you could share some of the success stories that people might not know about, that would inspire them around the approach that you’ve taken.

Mike Sasaki: [00:20:14] Yeah. Other lessons learned I would say, that’s a good question, and I have a ton, so  I’m I’m installing to try and pick the best lesson learned here.

I think the idea that things have to be dialed in before you launch a program. I’m not a fan of that anymore. I think starting getting data iterating. Data iterating data, iterating, things like that is really important to do. And so I would do that. And that was a lesson learned for sure.

Another lesson learned is over hiring. I think a lot of leaders get the head count and they fill it. And I think that’s a mistake early on as well. And then some of the successes is really just shrinking that for us to successful in production and having control of the customer’s journey and being able to predict and communicate out.

So when we first started, we were really bad and it was my fault at communicating out. How these customers are doing now, we have a weekly meeting and we just had one today with 45 people, including the C-suite and VPs. They come to learn about our customers, how they’re doing. One thing we talk about all the time are our pilots, how are our pilots doing and how our onboarding customers doing?

I don’t care if you get tired of seeing it and hearing it, you are informed. And that’s super important to do. And so that is something we didn’t do before. I was like, Oh, everyone knows,  it’s a big customer. So that’s been a huge success in informing the the company, the stakeholders.

And then if we need help, we don’t have to brief them. They’re aware of what’s going on. And so you can get help a lot faster. Oh, you need help with that customer. Yeah. I’m happy to, I’m aware. I need some of the details, but I’m aware of them, right? It’s not like a customer I’ve never heard of before that I’m being brought in to help.

So things like that are successes. You

Jason Whitehead: [00:21:51] know, I like that too, because so many people found that we talked to, they struggled to get the internal understanding of what customer success does and the value that you bring in it’s sound through that regular repetition and highlighting, the challenges and where they’re going and the successes.

That’s a great way to get people to really understand these are the problems you’re solving and where they are. And I think a lot more organizations would benefit from doing

Mike Sasaki: [00:22:11] something like that. Yeah. It’s helpful. Cus customers are why we’re here, right? Yeah. And if you don’t want to come to that meeting, that’s a problem.

And I have the support from the top down as well. He shows up every meeting. So that helps. If you’re just going to show up, I should show up. What do you mean

Jason Whitehead: [00:22:29] right now for meetings like that? Is it just your leadership that’s invited and allowed to attend or is it open

Mike Sasaki: [00:22:35] to the whole company? I opened it up to anyone that wants to learn about our customers.

And especially nowadays when we’re virtual it’s no different to me, if it’s 10 or a hundred, we’ve been around 45, but it always, it wasn’t always 45. It used to be 12 people, but it just we’ve been doing it for three years now. It just grew because we’re talking about customers and interesting stuff and.

Why not join. You don’t have to prepare anything. You just gotta sit there and do you

Jason Noble: [00:23:01] find them well attended to that? Do they tend to get a lot of internal people wanting to join them?

Mike Sasaki: [00:23:05] Yeah, 45 people. So that’s a big big, that’s probably one of our, probably our biggest meeting attendance wise and it’s across different functions as well.

Finance is there for their finance reason, supports there for support reasons, executives they’re there, our CFO, he’s a big fan of it. He attends because he’s out there talking to analysts. So he wants to know what customers are doing and the challenges we’re having. And so everyone comes for a different reason.

But we run it out of a system. I used to have to prepare a deck every time that was painful. We run it out of a system now and that’s changed everything. And we have a readout that goes out the night before. So we don’t have to cover everything. We can hit the highlights, but you have to read out, send your email.

It goes to a hundred people or so and just read it and come with questions, but we’ll hit the highlights as well. I

Jason Noble: [00:23:50] like that. That’s a really good way of it’s this idea of democratizing customer feedback. You can have got high idea of what it is and all the teams are seeing it and seeing it as is.

That’s pretty cool, Mike, this is a big, thank you. This has been a really great conversation, so many great insights. I love. Kind of the ideas that you’ve brought from what you’ve been doing at my tech or something that is there to build the team up there. This last conversation around how you get those customers in meeting and the restaurant of your team there.

So a huge thank you for us. This has been a really cool conversation.

Mike Sasaki: [00:24:19] Yeah. Thank you to you both. And thank you for what you do with the podcast. Huge fan it’s great stuff. And I enjoy chatting with you. Thank you. I

Jason Noble: [00:24:26] knew we had one. Jason, I knew we had a fan. We found him. That’s really cool. What we always like to do just the way we do this at the end of our podcast is give what we call a bowl challenge, question to our guests and the one we’d like to give to you.

Is how can our listeners ensure that their customer journey is really mapped to what their customers actually want. So how do they know they’ve got it right.

Mike Sasaki: [00:24:50] Yeah, that’s a great question, right? Because you can design a program and you can set it. And like I said before, setting it and forgetting it is the wrong way to do it.

Before you even start, you need to talk to customers and I’ve seen a lot of customer success leaders that. Surprisingly, don’t talk to customers. And so you need to do that. And I try and do that as much as I can, even if I’m just sitting there listening. And then I can set up meetings with the customers separately.

The executives there and I can ask them, this is how we view the world. Is this how you view the world? And you need to do that consistently. It’s a lot of effort,  and not a lot of leaders do that. So do that. Challenge your program. Is this working look at the metrics, are these the right metrics?

And it’s painful, right? Because often you find out, gosh, this isn’t working because these are the wrong metrics. Or maybe I need to iterate it right. And change things up.  Would just say, you need to really talk to customers and question, question yourself, look yourself in the mirror and say, am I doing this the right way?

Does this make sense? Look at the surveys. Look at NPS. There’s plenty of feedback. That’s the other thing. Look at the feedback. Look at the data as much as we want to go out there and do other things. A lot of the answers are already within our reach. You just got to look at it. And a lot of leaders, including myself at times are not looking at that stuff that is available.

So that would be my recommendation. That’s such

Jason Noble: [00:26:03] a good point because the data is there and it’s a understanding what it really means. And that’s one of the gaps we’ve gotten now, there’s lots of silos of data, but how do you get it together so that you can make decisions from it? Exactly.

Yep. Awesome. Mike, a massive, thank you. It’s been great having you here talking to us. So a big, thank you to you.

Mike Sasaki: [00:26:22] Thank you very much. Thanks.

Jason Noble: [00:26:24] Take care.



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